Jack
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feeel a weee bit dizzy- so possibly you won't get a great response....... well - its not tradition = watch all lord of the rings films back to back midnight to whenever the hell it finishes - 10am- 12.40pm if you include the time it takes to open up your exam results.
Sorry - i better conclude this before another attack happens- very sussetbabl - no point spelling that right now. ok
i DO have a valid response - just give me a few hours - & i'll come up with one to knock your socks off. :)
>>By Tchock (Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006 20:18)
No great hurry Tchock. Hope the exam results were OK! :)
>>By planet ear (Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006 21:32)
Planet ear
you have written in depth about how in your opinion religious beliefs alone havent started wars, its always been some social political or economic reason , what i think tchock is trying to say is that a hell of a lot of pain misery and pure evil has been inflicted on people throughout the centuries in the name of one god or another by men proclaiming to be acting in the name of their gods... Torquemada springs to mind, the occurances in Salem spring to mind, the countless pogroms of the jews spring to mind, and whilst there may be socio-economic or political reasons for the three examples above, the name of god of this religion or that religion has been invoked.
You cite the irish problems in your arguments, I can clearly remember two instances in Northern ireland, one where workers were pulled off a bus asked their religion and those of the wrong 'faith' to the terrorists were shot (cant remember if it was the UDA, IRA or INLA that did that)
the same happened to a bus carrying a 'showband'...only those of one faith were shot, obviously these were political killings, but the religious aspect cannot be ignored, they were shot because of their so called faith, not because they had red hair or wore glasses.
One cannot ignore the events in Iraq now, Sunni muslims and Shi'ite muslims bombing and killing each other... obviously its a political power struggle but it isnt the residents of fallujah killing the residents of basra...its one faith killing another and vice versa.
Think of all the children molested by priests, young lives destroyed by men whom supposedly preach the word of god and because of that inference are persons of trust and responsibility.
What about the magdelene girls in Ireland... they were incarcerated because of 'crimes' against god, and the roman catholic faith, birth out of wedlock, promiscuity etc etc.
And the most disgusting thing of all is the millions of people whom have stood by and done nothing because 'it is gods will'
So regardless of socio economic or political reasons a lot of wars and violence have occured 'in the name of god'
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 01:25)
Biam
Sorry I haven't time right now to answer in any great depth, you do acknowledge, I think accurately in the in instance of the Irish and Iraqi examples you cite, that the aggression you describe is borne out of political struggles for supremacy. Did the people who carried out such attacks believe they were acting according to Gods' instructions or were they (or their "generals") cynically trying to provoke or extend a religious divide for some political gain? If you were an Irish paramilitary you would arguably acheive a position of power, influence and respect within your society only if those you "fought for" were either frightened to step out of line within their own grouping, or frightened of what the opposing grouping might acheive against yours without the "protection" of your own paramilitaries. I'm inclined to think that the latter more cynical motivation is more likely at present.
I would suggest the child-molesting priest may be a child-molester first and foremost, and may even have chosen his vocation for the opportunities it would present, is a child-molesting teacher any different yet I don't hear your protestation that education is a bad thing?!?!?! Yes if ,as seems likely, the catholic hierarchy "turned a blind eye" attempted a whitewash that is very very distressing and regretable, but I can assure you similar things happen in education sector too.
If a person who has no religious faith does nothing in the face of "wrongs" because they don't feel able, are unsure of the best course, are insufficiently motivated or informed are they they any less disgusting to you? They won't use the phrase "it was Gods' will" because it isn't in their vocabulary but is it really any different in type? Please let's not use double-standards!
Sorry you have yet to convince me that wars and violence on the whole occur for reasons other than socio-economic or political, although it remains my position as I said earlier that the coersive arguments and propaganda used in motivation or justification may appeal to religious intolerance or religious certainties.
I think it might be interesting and worthwhile to consider whether wars and violence would cease to occur were theism removed from the human condition. I can't see it personally..........
Equally as we see perhaps in the case of lv2read a blind ("religious") insistence that "democracy" is good above all else can also be used to justify acts that seem dissproportionate to the "infidel" or "agnostic". Or indeed I'm sure various "wrongs" have been committed in the name of communism too.
I am finding this thread interesting and thought-provoking and I am glad that we have not descended into insults.
Regards, Al
>>By planet ear (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 15:14)
Biam - yes, I think you got completley what I was trying to say. :)
Now then, Planet ear
<wars and violence on the whole occur for reasons other than socio-economic or political>
Well when has anything in life occured because of one basic, intrinsic cause?
Tensions build up from various aspects - religious, socio-economic, political..............
Yes, a person who watches such horrific things without attempting to do anything is just the apathetic ones. Just like a murderer & a rapist are as bad as each other, yet for different reasons...... if you get my meaning.
From a religious point - you are just accepting the terrible situation - saying that it is God's will - no thought of your own which determines otherwise. You blindly accept what you've been told all your life about god.
Yet an aethist - he sits back and watches. He does not blame a god - he sees it as man's doing - and yet does nothing.
So on one hand you have a blind belief in something, where your thoughts are not deprived of freedom because they were never free as such - and then on the other you have someone who could change the situation but doesn't - he knows that it can be changed, for he as his own person could help change it.
& as for Priests & child molesters. Well firstly a priest has a duty to teach the ways of god - how he prevents evil. A teacher he teaches.... things that actually have been proven. A priest who abuses the children he is nurturing is also furthering another idea to the child - this is god's will that this is happening to you. Perhaps. But either way the priest is a person of apparently a moral high ground - abusing a child goes directly against that. As for opportunity? Hmm.... I think there are (unfortunately) other as effective ways of abusing children. Teachers? Well they go through checks.... yes some pass the system unfortunately. Hmmmm... actually wasn't there a whole school which abused children in the 70s & 80s here in Britain....... ??? Oh yes!!! It was a FAITH school!!!!!
Of course wars & voilence would not cease if you removed religion from society - as I said it is not the sole cause of hurt & pain, but it is a very large factor.
Hmmmmm.... the only difference between religion & a cult is a few hundred years of age.
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 19:47)
& the exam results were fine thank you :)
Not as good as I had hoped, but that either means I failed miserably or I set my goals too high. Fortunately it was the latter - besides, I did them all for fun - my place in uni is secured :)
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 19:50)
Tchock I very clearly said if you remove theism from the human condition not religion. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, but to me many many strands of human belief (ie orthodox faith, various political movements, social conditioning, racist beliefs etc) display "religion-like" qualities, I think to single out theistic religious thought as particularly responsible for the ills of the world doesn't seem terribly helpful or reasonable to me. I think to suggest that priest child molester makes religion "evil" doesn't really stand up, clearly a teacher in whom society/parents have placed trust abusing his/her doesn't make education evil, or for that matter a doctor like Harold Shipman abusing his position of trust doesn't make medicine evil, or a judge/police officer/ politician making unfair use of the power invested in them by society doesn't invalidate the idea that we might reasonably seek to have form of legal system to curtail the worst of anti-social/criminal behaviour (although there are clearly plenty of hurdles to overcome!)
OK I think we are rapidly getting into a situation where we are likely to repeat the same arguments at varying degrees of complexity and length without much probabilty of either of us conceding much ground! I remain, I guess, an atheist who feels that as historically successful and currently evolving memes (you could check out Dawkins "The Selfish Gene" if you aren't familiar with the concept.... although I rather suspect you may have read it) Faiths deserve our consideration as vehicles of philosophical/moral/societal thought but not necessarily (or and in many instances not even desirably!) our blind adherence.
I have enjoyed the debate, may we agree to differ on this particular issue with mutual respect having explored each others positions? I hope so...
Regards, Al
PS Which Uni Tchock?
>>By planet ear (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 20:51)
Yeah.........I guess we should best agree - but so long as you all know that I'M the real god & bow down to me in worship.... ;)
Haha... but anyway - priests who abuse children doesn't make religion evil - but it is a part of why it is. Religion has abused society for a very long time - whether it is the church, the jews, the muslims etc....... Read 'Sunset Song' - there is quite a lot of religious themes throughout it.... however it IS written in Doric (Aberdonian) so...... it may be a little hard to read....
Which uni - The University of Edinbugh - -I'm doing electronic engineering........... (& hopefully won't kill people......... :) )
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 22:48)
I always try to look on the bright side of life myself........ ;)
>>By planet ear (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 23:14)
Ahhhh an optimist I see...........
Me..... recovering pessimist....... ;)
Hmmmm..... so what do people think of Outer-Mongolian Politics then??? ;)
Nah really - howzbout another topic...............hmmmm.....
Isn't it amazing how poverty in Africa became a fashion - right now it seems so typically 'last year'. It's quite disturbing really - put on a music concert & they'll want to know - tell them the truth, and they'll hide from it.
Bono gives me the creeps rather like Old Dave Cameron (he's so down wid da kids). Ahhh man - anyone else emmigrating if he gets into power???
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 9 Aug 2006 23:58)
I emigrated 5 years ago tchock,, but politicians the world over are just out for themselves so where I live isnt any different from the UK except my pound goes a damn sight further... in saying that though i have been working on a project in the UK for the past 9 months and boy is it depressing 'living' here again, and only getting home every third weekend... never mind i'm off to Thailand for two weeks tomorrow so see you happy campers in a fortnight
take care all and have fun ;-)
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 10 Aug 2006 00:56)
I was rather surprized to learn that Bono (along with Blair) would be speaking at the recent News International conference. I wonder why he feels it's wise to court Murdoch. I wonder what he actually said.......
>>By planet ear (Thursday, 10 Aug 2006 01:23)
Hmmmm can anyone explain to me teenagers????
I don't get them.
Never have done. Really - they are bizarre creatures.
>>By Tchock (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 14:30)
Usually humans aged between 13 and 20 of your Earth years ;)
So what's the story?
>>By planet ear (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 17:21)
Well some guy on flork messaged me the other day - about something on my profile... & I replied out of politeness... and now his fiancee & her friend have gone ballistic telling me to 'stay the hell away' & 'stop messin'' with this guy..... it's bizarre. He sent me two messages & I replied once to each flork. And that was that. Suddenly I'm being threatened all because...... of what???
Bizarre.
All I said was something about hating perfection I think..... & suddenly I'm snatching the poor lad from the claws of his fiance ;)
(Haha... hope they're not reading this.... ;) )
>>By Tchock (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 17:55)
& also
a bunch of other teenager characteristics which involve a strange concept of 'partying'.
Never got that. ;)
& actually
pretty much ALL things teenagerish.....
>>By Tchock (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 17:56)
Hmmm I think only mathematics can attain "Perfection" unless Estee Lauder or suchlike have a new range.... then it'll be function of disposable income and susceptability to advertising I guess ..... ;)
"Partying"? Yep, I wonder what exactky that is?
>>By planet ear (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 18:15)
'A moment is all you can expect from perfection.' - Tyler Durden.
Partying is when you go to a party. It involves getting drunk and socialising and, for some, drugs and/or dancing. It's fun, and there's not really that much to 'get'. But video games and books are more fun, and they do have stuff to 'get'.
I'm interested by the optimist/pessimist thing. Personally I would call the view that humandkind is - in the long run - doomed realistic rather than pessimistic. By that I just mean that the human race won't last forever (nothing does) and when the end comes it'll probably be drawn out and messy, the way things are going. I certainly don't mean there's no point trying to solve the world's problems.
>>By Flagg (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 19:16)
Hmmmm
In the current state of the affairs, how long do you think the Human Race has left?
Actually - here's a tough question for all of us.
Within a few decades you will be able to grow your own organs - replacing them when you need to. Is that right? When you are on the brink of a natural death & your heart stops - is it right that you deserve to have your heart replaced by that of a new one which could function properly for thirty or more years - and when that fails, it is replaced again?
Me, I think 100% no. But of course - things are never that simple when it is you who is facing the problem, and not the theory. But I think that when (or if I even reach) 70 & my heart goes - or is about to.......... I would face what is about to happen to me. Not many would I think.... but should their volitions be granted?
>>By Tchock (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 20:08)
I really couldn't guess how long. But I think we're past the halfway point. Of course, if there's a nuclear war or if global warming wipes out civilisation, some people will survive and the human race will go on. But not forever.
I don't know if it's right, but it will change everything, far more noticeably than mobile phones or the internet. Where did you hear that?
>>By Flagg (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 20:26)
Hmmmm I think the human race has got about another 600 - 1000 years tops. If global warming doesn't wipe us out, then I think we might be the murderers' of our own fate...............
actually... global warming's (partly) our fault as well.
Hmmmmm........... poetic justice.................
I think there are far too many humans for the Earth.........that of course doesn't mean I'll start killing off people like Stalin.... (he thought there were far too many peasants................)
Maybe if we move to another planet things might get better................
It would be quite cool to live in Sci-Fi times................ anyone ever read the Algrabraist??
Yeah - I really like the idea of wormholes in the centre of planets......... going anywhere in the universe........... but I'm not so liking the whole time factor..........by the time you go anywhere (by space ship) everyone you knew would be gone....................
Gee - how DID I get from
the end of the world
to living out in space in a few thousand years????
>>By Tchock (Friday, 11 Aug 2006 21:31)
You got there by the intrusive genius of Iain M. Banks. I still very very very very very strongly reccomend Inversions. Also Consider Phlebas, The State of the Art and any of the other Culture novels. You espescially would like them. It's science fiction meets sociology.
By the human race, do you mean the race itself? As in, every last one? Or just everything (or almost everything) it's achieved? Because it'll be much more than 1000 years before we're entirely gone. But at this rate I think it will be less than 600 years before we're reduced to, you know, post-apocalypse sci-fi.
>>By Flagg (Saturday, 12 Aug 2006 00:15)
Oh yes and about the space travel thing, Fight Club has a quote for that too:
'When space travel really ramps up, each new planet will take on the name of the corporate entity that rapes it first.'
-Marla Singer.
I think she's right.
>>By Flagg (Saturday, 12 Aug 2006 00:16)
Ok.
Anyone got any ideas on how to solve the world's problems?
>>By Tchock (Monday, 14 Aug 2006 20:11)
Apparently not....
Well maybe the question was a wee bit ambigous........................
Does anyone else feel extremely angry at the way Africa has been sidelined - as always - since last year. I never got the point in providing a MUSIC gig for people in order to premote the wellness of Africa. It completely went over my head.
Music concert for people to teach them about poverty.
What really happened was that people went along for the music & not much else. Of course there was a lot concerning Africa & poverty - but much of it was sidelined - very little was put on TV for instance. There was big TV screens with footage from Africa - yet the TV cameras concentrated on close ups of the bands there. And to be honest - what really was the point in it all???
Yes spread awareness - but how many people AREN'T aware what is going on???
Geldof's got good intentions - but I really don't see how putting on a gig for people who aren't going to think twice about what it's for is going to help people in need.
Bono alone could probably transform an entire village or even town....
All the bands there could.
And Paul feckin' McCartney.....
I don't know - many of them may have good intentions & genuinely believe in what they were trying to achieve, but I just get this strong feeling that many saw this as a way of garnering media attention. I'm cynical - can you tell???
Anyone else feel like this???
I remember this ITV news headline the other month....
"Famine still in Sudan"
Really - what...??? It didn't all go away after Live8????
>>By Tchock (Tuesday, 15 Aug 2006 20:12)
''You couldn't resolve Live8's issues by mounting a rock concert. A riot maybe, but not a rock concert.''
-Thom Yorke
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 17 Aug 2006 19:34)
As of now, until who knows, I believe that the only way to solve the world's problems is to destroy everything. Nuke every city and murder every last man, woman and child on the face of the earth. We all deserve it anyway.
>>By Flagg (Sunday, 20 Aug 2006 22:55)
Having a bad day Flagg?
>>By planet ear (Monday, 21 Aug 2006 00:19)
I know it's frustrating, but remember it is not on us to change the world overnight. We do the small things and encourage others to do the same, and after many years there will be true change.
For instance, I am poor and can't fund a cancer study, but I can give a few bucks from each pay cheque to the American Cancer Society. I can't buy up land and declare it wilderness, but I can eat less beef (or better, no meat at all) and help that way. I can't help Mexico or Columbia become rich right away, but I can buy imported weed and coke to help the small farmers in those countries. I mean, beans and other vegetable goods.
The point is, it's awesome that everyone on this board cares (that's why we get angry so easy), so I'd say it's imperative that we each do what we can and lead others to help out as well, even though we won't see the benefits right away. Kind of like an old man planting a tree whose shade he will never enjoy.
>>By Just Jon (Monday, 21 Aug 2006 00:26)
> We do the small things
Or as a friend would say: "I can promise that if you do nothing - you will accomplish nothing"
> buy imported weed and coke to help the small farmers in those countries. I mean, beans and other vegetable goods.
LOL
In our news today that veggies will be awfully expensive this fall/winter due to the extreme weather of late. Maybe - hopefully - when people wallets get involved it will be an eye opener concering the effects of climate change ???
Or maybe ppl just start consuming weeds instead of veggies ;-)
>>By Lynn (Monday, 21 Aug 2006 13:25)
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