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You know, alot of unis aren't counting A levels in subjects like media studies and business studies now when they decide whether to let you in.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 20 Sep 2006 11:13)
Well Flagg for Scottish students some universities (mainly english) don't accept Advanced Highers against A Levels - and Advanced Higher is worth the same as First Year University.
Ok.
The economics of university life.
First year:
Accomodation. If you're staying in the Halls of Residence - you've got to pay a LOT for what you get. Most people can't really afford an extra £600 a month.......
Then you've got food on top of that - because lets face it, churned out factory made food in the canteen is NOT satisfying - certainly in our one.
Then you've got expensive books. The average cost of a university book is around £50.
You'll need to buy at least two, depending on what course your doing.
Then you've got the university societies - they themselves need funding, nights out, cinema, shopping for new clothes, laundry, toiletries, bus fares, a quick snack, days out.
And don't say "students who are poor shouldn't go out & spend money."
Cooped up in here I get bored quite a lot, and I'm not great spender of money.
So the first few weeks you're finding your feet - drinking a lot no doubt as any teenager would once leaving the confines of home. You're buying new books and new comforts for your room - you're rents come off for the first month. Yeah, you probably spent a bit too much in the first few weeks.
Loan's come through - it's feck all basically. A few hundred pounds lasts you until around Christmas time and after that you get the second installment, and then the third.
Your parents are working hard to keep you in university. You've got an older sibling at uni too. You'll probably need a job to keep up your bank balance.
Second year:
Your first flat - you're sharing most likely. Depending on the area, it's usually reasonable.... but still a lot for an unemployed student. The loan comes through again - maybe this time it's changed - higher or lower.... you can't really tell.
You need food - no canteen to supply two meals a day - but lets face it supermarkets lure you in with cheap prices & snare you with their great deals, but then you end up buying things you might not normally buy (because you probably think that you've saved quite a lot on your buy one get one frees). So you've got the shopping in. But the quality of the food isn't that great - as it's the cheapest you could find, probably. There's no substancance. You eat more. You need to buy more.
Then there's electricity bills, phoneline, mobile phone credit/contract. Trains home to see the folks. Anyone been on a train recently? It costs a lot doesn't it?
More expensive books to buy.
Your parents keep on supplying you with money, but it's hardly fair on them - is it.
You might want to go out some nights - who wouldn't?
You need money for that.
Parents aren't going to buy you new shoes, clothes etc. Although they'll probably send you some $$$ no doubt. But its still money.
Your job interferes with your work schedule - ditch the job.... & lose all the money you might earn???
The next few years are the same until you graduate. You cannot graduate without paying a fee or around £2000 to the university to help other students in financial need (of course this is a little ambiguous under the current settings).
So over the four years (five for me) you've spent a lot of money. You've probably gone into overdraft a few times too many so those keep on adding up.
Fortunately in Scotland you are only obliged to pay back your loan once you start earning £15 000 or more. If you earn £20 000 you pay 5% of £5000 (the amount over £15 000).
So
it's quite complicated.
And £13 000 is the official figure (for Scotland certainly) so you can check that up.
"Ya's"
Is that Fair???
Well..................................... probably not - but we all have people we dislike. It's the fact that they have nothing to worry about I guess that bothers the rest of us. They have no money worries like most students. Everything in life is just so... jolly.
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 20 Sep 2006 20:18)
>Well Flagg for Scottish students some universities (mainly english) don't accept Advanced Highers against A Levels - and Advanced Higher is worth the same as First Year University.
That's disgraceful, it should go to court or something. Honestly, the education system is a mess.
I was aware of uni being very expensive, I'd never seen it broken down like that though. It's interesting. I think the real problem is the economy itself, the same as it's the problem everywhere on every level, from local to international. The money's just in the wrong place. Universities could virtually pay for themselves if all the country's money wasn't in a) football b) drugs and c) CEOs' bank accounts.
Of course, it's a bit late for anyone to do anything about that.
BiaM, I can't see what you were getting at (if you were getting at anything.) Were you implying that not all upper class kids have rich parents?
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 20 Sep 2006 22:19)
"BiaM, I can't see what you were getting at (if you were getting at anything.) Were you implying that not all upper class kids have rich parents?"
No I was implying that not all 'rich kids' come from the so called uppper class, as tchock says above your parents would help out, so if your parents were self made rich and they can afford to pay for all your tuition, is that a bad thing? and if so why? its what most parents would do if they could, and if its ok for self made rich parents to pay then why isn't it ok for the so called blue blood parents to pay?
For example if Thcocks parents win the lottery and decide to pay her uni fees for the next five years does she suddenly become a 'ya' a 'leech' on the working class kids? or would she turn the money down as getting the money from your parents is so unfair when all the other kids have to get loans? its dead easy to whinge about those with money when you don't have any but what would you do if the shoe was on the other foot?
If its a case of getting the uni places because of money and not talent then obviously its wrong, full stop, but unforunately thats life.
As for paying back student loans, if its not fair then who should pay? the tax payer? so what about the perpetual students those that go from for example BSc to Msc how many years is that in uni and what if they then go for a Doctorate....i know there are probably not many but who pays for all that?
I agree that the financial burden is probably a big worry for kids nowadays, but at the end of the day why should you be carried by the state, what about the kids who arent so bright who have to find jobs and go through the same worries as to where is the rent money coming from, how often can they get new clothes or go out etc etc there are no loans for them at all apart from bank loans and they arent garanteed (spellcheck) like student loans probably are...so is that fair?
I suppose the whole matter for me is how long do you get to pay the loan off if, its an unreasonable time frame and severely cuts into someones wages then a fairer system must be obtained otherwise whats the point of seeking work after uni??
As for your comment Flagg on CEO's with huge bank accounts, who pays them these huge sums of money? the board of directors/shareholders, they pay massive sums so that the CEO will do a god job of perpetuating the business and help the business to expand, the aim of every single business be it a global corporation or a little family run concern is to survive to keep trading. if the big guns earn big wages because the business is booming and the board decide that is what they are worth then why is that not fair? these guys do put some hours in you know they do have business acumen and drive to be of a benefit to the business, if you dont agree with that then don't buy any of that businesses goods or services!!
Now when it comes to something like the chairman of the BBC getting a massive wage (or even Jonathon Ross getting £18 million) on the backs of everyones TV license fees that just seem to go up and up then that is wrong. And that leads to another of Tchocks points Media studies what the feck is that? do you need a brain to do that i cant think of anything so pointless and yes media studies students should pay loans back, as should sociology students... I mean there are courses and there are courses but what a waste of oxygen these course seem to be... Tchock i salute you Electronics engineer good for you, but what about students who do degree courses such as french and biology (as my mates sister did) what is that all about!! sorry i digress... :-)
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 20 Sep 2006 23:29)
>For example if Thcocks parents win the lottery and decide to pay her uni fees for the next five years does she suddenly become a 'ya' a 'leech' on the working class kids?
That's a good point.
>...if the big guns earn big wages because the business is booming and the board decide that is what they are worth then why is that not fair?
Because they have all that money that could be put to better use. I'm not saying they didn't earn it or that they don't deserve it, just that it could be used better elsewhere. Like our shit education system, our shit police force or our shit health service. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the concept of free enterprise, but in practical terms it leads to what I've described: money in the wrong places. As I said, it's a bit late to do anything about it now.
>I mean there are courses and there are courses but what a waste of oxygen these course seem to be...
I agree with the general consensus that there are too many people doing soft subjects and not enough going for more practical stuff. Media studies I'm fairly sure is bullshit (although I wouldn't dream of saying that as an assertion since I've never done the subject), but at the same time I could sympathise with people taking media studies if they were taking it because it looks easy and they don't know what else to do.
I'm at the stage now of making decisions about what I'm gonna do with my life, and (thank god) I have a couple of things I want to persue, which is better than nothing. But I think there are alot of people my age who don't have a clue what they want to do with their lives, and yet university is forced down their throats as it has been for the whole of their school career, and they have teachers and tutors and careers advisors taking them by the hand to write their UCAS applications and all. Well if someone always dreamed of being an electrician then they would know what to do independantly and wouldn't bother with uni, but the majority of these kids don't know what they want to do, so what do you expect? They take the most obvious route - uni - and go for a course that looks easy. I don't blame them.
That's all from my experience as someone to whom that stuff is happening RIGHT NOW.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 15:29)
"Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the concept of free enterprise, but in practical terms it leads to what I've described: money in the wrong places."
But is it really money in the wrong places, bearing in mind that these people pay higher tax rates than most, and the companies, if hugely successful pay huge amounts in corporation tax (I know because i am on the higher tax bracket and i pay corporation tax too)
As you know this tax is then collected by the treasury and allocated to various government departments and a chunk will go to the various borough and town councils. as well..not enough though which is why councils collect council tax too.
The shite education system and shite national health services etc etc are the responsibility of various government departments, the way they spend the meagre funds they get from the treasury and the amount that the treasury actually hand out is the cause of why our services are, on the whole, piss poor.
Taxing people and big companies more, will just drive these people/companies away from the country.. in the 70's (i think) some of the big stars like Sean Connery left the country because of having to pay ridiculous amounts of tax (something like 90 pence for each pound that they earned) and in Ireland big companies have been leaving in droves because corporation tax concessions that they received for setting up in Ireland have now been withdrawn...hence they close and go to some other country like Poland and loads of bodies are made redundant in Ireland.
A better management of the treasury is required, better management of school funding and the health service funding (not so long ago the health service spent millions on designing new logos for the NHS and then re-printing up all the paperwork, letterheads etc etc.) is required, as it is the responsible people and departments waste money hand over fist....you can hardly blame private enterprise for that.
"but the majority of these kids don't know what they want to do, so what do you expect? They take the most obvious route - uni - and go for a course that looks easy. I don't blame them."
I for one after doing two 'A' levels for a year and three 'O' level retakes as well, decided 'sod that for a game, who wants to be in school for the next five years ' so I binned them and Joined the army like i was always going to anyway... I dont know if going to Uni is an easy option... and if it is the easy option by taking some easy courses why shouldn't these students have to pay their way in the form of student loans... otherwise its just Uni for uni's sake and the tax payer foots the bill, why would that be fair?
I suppose the answer would be sponsored Uni courses where business pays for your course and you work for that business afterwards....I mean if the BBC or ITV or UKgold even require some more muppets to work in their studios, scheduling departments etc etc let them pay the way for the bright new technical stars forging their way through these media studies courses......... And it still beats me what a sociologist actually does? :-)
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 21:56)
Heres one for you all
Why are private schools wrong ?
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 22:19)
You're right, although I still think there's money in the wrong place. You homed in on the corporations thing, but what about football? They earn so much it's just ridiculous. That's a massive chunk of the economy being (in my opinion) completely wasted. I also understand that raising taxes for rich people even higher wouldn't help, which is why I said it's too late to do anything about it. As is my custom, I'm not offering any solutions, just saying what I think the problem is. But I agree with you that the way money is handled is also a problem.
I didn't mean uni is an easy option, I think Tchock's post has shown us it's not. I mean throughout school we're led by the hand and the next year of our life is always certain, until we have to make a decision about uni. It comes out of nowhere. So most of us just do what seems most natural - what our tutor keeps talking about.
In my class there was a boy who wanted to join the R.A.F, he was a straight A's student; and there was a boy who wanted to go to Japan and make video games, he was already learning Japanese when I knew him. Off the top of my head, they're the only people I knew in school who knew exactly what they wanted to do. The rest either dropped out or went through the motions of applying to universities so they'd know what they'd be doing for the next three years.
So no, I don't think young people should have to get into massive debt just because they don't know what to do with their lives.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 23:06)
Why are private schools wrong?
I don't know. Are they wrong? You realise private schools are the ones the public pay for and public schools are the ones where the parents pay for their kids to go there? I don't get it either. It's a pretty screwed up language we have.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 23:12)
"but what about football? They earn so much it's just ridiculous. That's a massive chunk of the economy being (in my opinion) completely wasted."
I so agree with you there, unfortunately the fans are willing to pay for the tickets, for the sky sports pay as you view matches, for the merchandise, and because these fans are willing to pay, then the sponsors are willing to pay massive amounts to have things like vodafone on the players shirts... I personally dont like football and am astounded at the superstar status these muppets have and the ridiculous wages they get, but once again football is a business it provides a service just like a pharmaceutical company or a chain of video shops. I think that all sports should be 'amateur' sports.
" So no, I don't think young people should have to get into massive debt just because they don't know what to do with their lives."
So in that vein should the taxpayer pay for them if they don't know what to do with their lives? its a bit of a catch 22 situation really, its not nice to be in debt I know i have certainly been there, but at the same time should the tax payer pay so that they can waddle through uni before deciding what they want to do..I would far rather pay extra taxes for a decent health service than for kids to go to Uni, however even that wouldnt be assured, how many times has the chancellor of the exchequer got up and promised x amount extra for the NHS and yet we still have massive waiting lists, and minging hospitals..
and I meant private education, Public schools, parents paying for their kids to go to the school of their choice as opposed to sending their kids to the local comprehensive, and yes indeed it is a screwed up language!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 21 Sep 2006 23:28)
But why should anyone have a more "privellaged" education than anyone else purely because they've got more money?
It is wrong to seperate kids from an early age from the rest of the human race who can't afford the private schools - it just divides society even further.
Education is NOT a monopoly - it should not be paid for privately - but by the entire public so that everyone has the right to learn for gratis.
It's about as wrong as sending black kids to a seperate school to the white kids.
Kids going to Uni & Taxes.
Ok - well I'm not exactly asking that we should all get a huge grant when we go to uni - but a little help wouldn't go amiss. We have next to none if we aren't classified as "poor". I'm sure any family trying to send two kids to uni at once is pretty tough - it's alright if you've got the money, it's ok if you're given a grant - but for those in between who don't fall under the brackets of those categories: what's it like for them (the majority of people).
And yes - it would be nice to go into a hospital which is clean & receive medical help before you die of the illness you are being treated for. Perhaps if we didn't spend.... oh how much does it cost again to keep the troops in Iraq for a day?? Millions. Yes, I'm sure that money could be put to better use than that.
Do you think the NHS is a good idea?
I'm sure Mr. Beveridge thought so.
You know the only reason doctors were allowed to practise privately was because they threatened not to work for the NHS. Isn't that nice.
Some key budget misuse of Government/Council money (the first few I can think of....)
One family who decide not to work because - in all honesty, they are lazy. They get paid NOT to work/"look for a job." They've been looking for one now for ... two years? Their kids get a free taxi - organized & paid for by the council - to take them to school because the parents cannot get up in the morning.
One family - the dad works in the army. The kids get paid by the government to go to a private school. So we're paying for this family's kid to go a private exclusive school which the rest of society is not financially eligble to go to?
Spending £500 000 (+) on a lift in the school for one kid. Now I'm not saying he shouldn't go to a comprehensive school - but there is another school a full 10 minutes away from where he lives which has a lift already installed.
About three miles down the road: the Scottish Parliament. No more needs to be said.
Nicola Sturgen. Paying her is a crime in itself.
The Royal Family. Wouldn't it be nice if we all could get our lives paid for by the rest of society's hard graft just because we were born to the right family?
Iraq.
E.M.A - Educational Maintenance Allowance. Let's pay kids to come to school, basically. It has it's limitations, of course. For instance the middle-income families are denied this. Yet the other kids can get £££ for turning up every day & get to spend it on cigrettes & alcohol. And then the deliquents stay on just to get paid. They stay on & cause havock for the rest of the school, to the teachers. Education is about teaching those who are willing to learn: there is no point in teaching those who are only sitting in the classroom to get their £30 a week. Let's face it - it's just going to contribue to the Higher Education statisics "Oh, look - Britain's had a bigger Higher Education attendence this year...." Wow, I wonder what could have caused that one.
Sending out a dedicated team of Scottish MSPs to New Zealand to see how THEY managed to create a nice enviroment. Smells like a holiday to me.....
A certain teacher in my former school. It is my opinion that you work for your money: to be honest dodging classes is a bit of a cop out....
Arresting people throughout the country for "terrorist charges" when they were merely protesting.
MPs.
Allowances:
Staffing Allowances : A maximum of 84, 081
Incidental Expenses : A Maximum of 20, 000
ICT equipment (centrally provided) : (worth circa 3000)
Pension provision for Member's staff : 10 percent employees gross salary
London Supplement : 2, 613
Additional Cost Allowances : A Maximum of 21, 634
Winding Up Allowance : 34, 694
Car Mileage : 40p (for first 10, 000 miles)
25p (for after 10,000 miles)
Bicycle Allowance (per mile) : 20p
Motorcycle Allowance (per mile) : 24p
In May 2002, it was suggested that Chairmen of select committees receive a 12, 500 pay rise. These included: Enviromental Audit, European Scrutiny, Public Accounts, Human Rights, Public Administration, Deregulation and Regulatory Reform and Statutory Instruments. In line with the increase in Member's salary in November 2003, the increase was essentially 13,107.26
Well now we can see where all our money's going.......................
(All prices in £ - I copied this from another of my things, which for some reason dislikes the £ sign. Either way you can check whether I'm telling fibs or not if you google MP Salary or something.)
>>By Tchock (Friday, 22 Sep 2006 14:07)
I'd like to second your opinion on the concept of E.M.A, and also add that I think it's disgusting that this money is only given to students whose parents earn below a certain amount. It gives the message that low-income households produce juvenile delinquents who like to bunk. That's what our politicians think of us.
And that bribing teenagers to go to school is disgusting anyway.
And yes, I believe the NHS is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it appears that soon an idea is all it will be. Actually, I find it hard to believe that any nation with a sense of basic human rights could NOT have a publicly payed-for health service.
>>By Flagg (Saturday, 23 Sep 2006 00:11)
Hmm. Having said all that about EMA, if I did qualify it it's not like I'd turn it down or something.
>>By Flagg (Sunday, 24 Sep 2006 20:51)
The wailings above confirm my belief that America's system is best. Does British education come down to pounds and no cents!!??
By listening to BIAM and Tchoch are you folks exploring a 'middle ground.' It seems as though nothing has changed since I last visited here.....the rampage of the young and the absurdity of the mature,
>>By lv2read (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 18:12)
Oh bloody hell he's back.
America's system is best is it???
Hmmm.
Ok then. Elaborate - because right now, you haven't convinced me...
Rampage of the Young
& the Absurdity of the Mature.....................
Ahhh.... I've missed you lv2read......... why don't you speak to us anymore???
You bring unwitting humour & laughter to all those who read this page......... It is BECAUSE of you that this page was created...........!!!!
No seriously. If the American Education System is all that you think it is - then explain to us (poorly educated) Brits who (let's face it) will only amount to being a chimney sweep.
I've heard that it is far more costly for university over there than here - not heard that much about the High School system though. But I guess I do kinda like the idea of "you have to graduate from High School before you can leave". If that is true - I have only ever really heard it mentioned on TV. You have a set amount of credits to fulfill right? And if you don't meet those credits - then you cannot graduate or go into the next year?? Is this why whenever you see High School kids from America on the news they look that bit older ???
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 18:21)
Tchock
I wasn't even aware that EMA existed and if it does then whomever introduced it should be sacked, what a ridiculous idea, and as for the layabouts kids getting taxis, well thats what this country has been doing for ages, thats the 'looney left' councils for you...
I agree totally that MP's get paid far too much, earlier we discussed CEO's of companies getting massive wages, but these CEO's don't actually set their own salaries do they. they negotiate with the shareholders directors etc etc...wheras MP's mmmmm.. who sets their salaries....themselves the greedy bastards!!
My question on whether parents paying for education is wrong or not, well if I had kids i would certainly pay so that they get a better education, the question of right or wrong for paying is a question of do you want a quality education for your kids.
My Dad worked at a Public schoool in North London, I went to a comprehensive after we moved down to London from Warrington, where I went to a technical school, one up from secondary modern, and one down from Grammar school.
I thought that the kids in the schoool where my dad worked on the whole were snobby little inbreds but most in reality were just normal kids like every other kid hating school and wanting to do something else, but the comprehensive school that I went to was absolutely crap compared to their school and crap compared to the school I went to in Warrington which I considered to be the equal of the public school for quality of education.
I dont think paying for a good education for your kids is wrong, the piss poor level of education in state schools is wrong, if they improved to the level of public schools then parents wouldnt have to pay would they!! (except for the obvious snobs who choose a public school for its name and the prestige, but they are still paying for a quality education)
You mentioned the soldiers kid that went to public school, The soldier in question would have to contribute some of the costs, and it gives the kid a more stable schoool life, My sister was married to a squaddie and my nephews went to public school, my dad was a squaddie and I changed schools every three years or so, in various countries, you can imagine the disruption that caused to my education..
As for the NHS, I go private if i need an operation then I dont want to be waiting for several months for it, also I mostly work abroad so i have to have some sort of medical backup if it all goes wrong for me.
Having been married to a German girl once upon a time ago, the German system was excellent, instead of paying national insurance to the Government you have to have medical insurance by law, if you are unemployed the state pays for your medical insurance, the medical insurance rates are set so its not a monopoly for the insurance companies to cream money from the 'consumer' left right and centre like with car insurance, the insurance companies pay the hospitals and the government dont cream the cash off either, you get sick you get seen right away...well thats how it was in the early 90's dont know if its the same now though
L2R how the hell is the American system best, you still have public schools there, and there is still a class system in the US
otherwise why cant any kid form any state go to an Ivy league school? is Harvard or Princeton available to all and sundry...no I dont think so, I think its the rich kiddies that get to go to those particular seats of learning.....
Does the state pay for further education or do the parents have to save for 18 years to pay for their kids college funds, your system is no better than ours, you still manage to churn out some right thick twats who dont even know where France is!!
Or could it be that your belief that your education system is best is purely because its American? and in your eyes all things American are world class
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 20:19)
Tchock...did you say COSTLY education in America?? Are you serious?? Private universities ARE costly....everywhere. Public unis (as you say) are inexpensive in America. Community colleges cost upwards of $500 per YEAR. Now, if that is expensice, I defer. Public universities cost more....but are not expensive compared to private ones. In California, the University of California at Berkeley is one of the finest unis in America and annual tuition is roughly $6,000. Again, if that is expensive to you, I defer. Harvard University, Columbia, Yale, etc. are in the range of $35,000 to $40,000 per academic year.
Yes, the American educational system is open to all. And education below uni level is free for all.....and always has been.
What we are woefull lacking in here is public trade schools. And that is because of the effete liberal snobs who bgelieve that all should be exposed to Shakespeare, politics, geography and the like. Many of our people could be trained as welders, pipe fitters, tool and die makers, etc. and lead a more financially secure life had they not wasted time in college as they were not college material in the first place. Trade schools are privately funded here, must make a profit for their investors. If it weren't for the liberals an apprentice program would fluorish here. There are many, many people here (white, black, brown and scotch plad) that would so benefit.
>>By lv2read (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 20:53)
BIAM:
Did you ask why can't anyone attend a Harvard, or Yale, or Columbia? That is such an ignorant question that you don't belong in this discussion.
Class system in America.... Does the Communist Daily Worker confirm that for you? Where do you people get these crazy ideas?
In America, as in Britain, and Ireland, and Scotland, people are born with differing intellects, backgrounds, etc. Dear BIAM..there is nothing that you can do to even things out. In England you may destroy initiative by excessively taxing income, investment returns and the like. When will you ever learn? Capitalism leads tp the highest standard of living for the greatest number. Open your eyes before it is too late!!! Join a communist society if you want everything evend out. Capitalism rewards initiative, ambition and desire.
>>By lv2read (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 21:33)
Whats all this bollox about the communist daily worker you muppet, do you really believe that anyone who doesnt go along with your views is a communist, typical jingoist bullshit and wholly unsurprising from a specimen such as yourself, just remember old man, whilst you were hiding from doing military service against the commies you hate so much I was serving in the armedd forces 'protecting' against these commies, so dont give me communist daily worker you yellow fucker.......you wouldnt know what a real commmunist was if one smacked you around the face,
if you think that there is no class system in America then you really should re try to educate yourself, EVERY fucking country has a class system even the so called classless communist states had you ever taken an interest in the outside world, maybe learned a bit of geography (which you seem to despise in your schools) read a bit of foreign literature (oh sorry no place for that in your brilliant version of an education sytem) then perhaps you would know what you are talking about......
as for the question of me being ignorant well its fucking true isnt it, you rant on about your god bless american education system being the best, its no different from that in the UK, you have state education and you have public schools (where you pay for the education, if you hadn't quite figured that out) just like we do in the UK.....and re-read my fucking post I didnt mention Columbia you did!!
also where on hell did i say that I was for excessive taxation...READ THE FUCKING POSTS BEFORE YOU PONTIFICATE.....I personnally despise the british taxation system full fucking stop.... and before you ramble on I aint interested on how much better the US tax system is
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 22:23)
Dear Maniac,
You know the saying about people with one word vocabularies......
And, if the shoe fits..........
It is time to moderate big boy.....your language doesn't impress the gang any more. (Perhaps this will awaken them.) Now, tell me about the high cost of education in America. Or you may explain to me why every British youth should be given a spot at Exeter---or your most exclusive secondary school.
>>By lv2read (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 22:52)
L2R
I couldn't give a toss on your views of my language, and I certainly couldnt give a toss whether or not it impresses people, its good old anglo-saxon language, you know English, because we speak English, not american, its part of our heritage and its rich, and its descriptive, if its a little too much for your sensibilities then tough luck old boy!! and if you press me I can think of a few other anglo saxon words or celtic words to use, all these words being in existence long long before the usa was..... you do realise that there wqas life before the usa dont you, or is that not relevant in your magical views on what should be taught in your schools?
and as I said earlier READ MY FUCKING POSTS BEFORE YOU PONTIFICATE...which part of that dont you quite understand, which part of that is a little bit too much for you to grasp!!
where the fuck did i write about the costs of US education, I care not a jot about US education never thought about it before until you mentioned how much better it was then the UK's education.... read Tchocks posts she has written that she HEARD and i quote "that it is far more costly for university over there than here" she didnt say it WAS MORE COSTLY or that it WASNT MORE COSTLY just that she HEARD it was, which i take to mean she read about it or saw it on the TV... I dont know instead of directing the cost question to me direct it to TCHOCK and READ THE FUCING POSTS for once wont you!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 23:15)
Tchock's right, this whole board is only here because of lv2read.
We've missed you man.
Although I have to say, I think that last post is a bit of a lame response to BiaM's outpouring of rage.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 23:34)
Lv2read, I don't think anyone here has said every British youth should go to a highly-thought-of university. If anything, that's the very idea that we've been railing AGAINST.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware of the potential problems with a society made of graduates and lacking people with practical skills.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 27 Sep 2006 23:45)
Flagg,
<<<I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware of the potential problems with a society made of graduates and lacking people with practical skills.>>>
You are correct. There are many (relatively) high paying jpbs in the US that go unanswered because the potential worker is in an academic environment not suitable to him/her.....instead of learning a valuable trade.
England is light year ahead of the USA in this regard, I have spent time in Northern England and have witnessed an apprentise program secon to none. Perhaps there is something that we agree upon.
BIAM
Would you lik to rethimk your 'do nothing' position on Iraq, And, hpw impressed were you with Hugo Chavez's tirade against President Bush at the UN General Assembly? He was followed by a quick study in the Iranian mullah.
>>By lv2read (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 00:36)
BIAM
Correction above.....Would you like to rethink your 'do nothing' position on Iran? (Not Iraq!!)
>>By lv2read (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 02:45)
L2R my position on Iran was as follows (see page one of this board)
"If the Iranian revolutionary council is hellbent on wiping Israel off the face of the planet, then Israel should replicate what it did in 1981 with a precise surgical precison aerial attack on the Nuclear reactor(s) which pose a threat....
Isreal has proved beyond doubt that it is Militarily a far superior force than the US (if you actually discount the sheer numbers of the US military that is....i'm talking quality here)... just consider Entebbe and the forementioned iraq attack...no fuss, no fanfare, no blustering, no wasting time with threats and dogma..just get in there do the job and come home....something that the US has never ever been able to do."
Now where did I say do nothing about Iran? The US military is a wee bit overstretched at the moment to deal with Iran as well, The US air force is beyond a joke, and despite the military cock-up the Isrealis made in the recent incursion into Lebanon, they are still far more qualified for surgical strikes against Iran.
Why does the US feel that it is responsible for resolving the Iran problem, doesn't bush think the world is dangerous enough after his invasion of Iraq is he getting bored with Iraq and wants to move on to fresh killing fileds?
As for Hugo Chavez I didnt listen to what he said about Bush, if he called him an imperialist agressor hellbent on colonising half the world under the US flag, or if he called him an idiot of the highest order then he's not far off the truth now is he.
I think i read somewhere that venezuela had the biggest Oil reserves outside of the OPEC nations (may be wrong of course but i cant be bothered looking it up right now) bet that pisses bush of eh, yet another nation with more oil than the US and not friendly to the US either...gee wouldnt it have been easier for the US to invade venezuela than Iraq..a lot closer to home for troop shipments and oil pipelines!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 09:19)
BIAM
So....do NOTHING until something is done to you?? Not very responsible to me!
And Iran...you see them as primarily a thorn in America's back?? You don't see a connection with Syria and the destabilization of the fragile peace on the West Bank?? I see Iran as a threat to peace in that region, wherein a nuvlear confrontation in that small part of the world could affect much, much more. You would be wise to take President Bush'es council on that.
I maek attempt after attempt to 'understand' WHERE you are coming FROM. I'm light hearted about the Communist Daily Worker and the Al Quaida Chronicle as resources for you, but I am beginning to have my doubts. It is not solely your viewpoint, or your intemporate rhetoric that bothers me, but that you are a product of a free society---which protects your right to foolish outbursts---and you don't seem to have a clue that it is that freedom that sets us apart from the Iraqs, Irans, the Venezuelas and so many other countries that don't allow dissent.
America is the shining light on the hill. A vibrant economy, strong middle class, high tech, where even the poorest have automobiles, washers/dryers, stereos, access to FREE education (but not Harvard), and a great President. The President reflects the people. We respect the Germans, the French, the Dutch, but 'Thank You' we'll decide our foreign policy for ourself, and--if we desire your opion--we'll ask. It has been a while coming but America is asserting herself amd, successors to Bush most likely will stay the course.
Personally, I'd like to see us cancel (in its entirety) our multi, multi, multi billion dollar foreign aid package for just ONE YEAR. I wonder just how long the vitriolic statements railing against our government (such as yours) would continue. I'm thinking that the US would be looking very good at that point.
Please excue the length of this response.
>>By lv2read (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 18:22)
I've seen lengthier.
The shining light on the hill?? Are you seriously saying that America has nothing wrong with it?
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 18:29)
FLAGG:
<<The shining light on the hill?? Are you seriously saying that America has nothing wrong with it?>>
Did I say that??
To get an objective answer as to why people seek our Citizenship, each person has his/her personal reasons.
Perhaps it is our British heritage, our civilith, our basis in your Commom Law, or a combination of all those things. It may also be the perception that opportunities are limitless, that you can be anything that you want to be...that hard work, ambition, and more hard work will pay off. In fairness, it may be our culture of selfishness, materialism, purchasing power, etc. that lures many. We Americans basically oppose any law or regulationm that encroaches upon the good intentioned initiative of the individual. We despise laziness---wanting something for nothing. If one plans to live off the dole (sp??) here, that lifestyle won't be upscale.
Yes, America has its faults....and maybe one of them is trying to be all things to all people. We are a nation of immigrants---BUT our roots are English AND Western European.....and that influence won't change significantly in my lifetime. Our competitiveness, ambition, materialism, emphasis on the automobile for much more than transportation, is offensive and unsettling to some. And there are other complaints I am sure.
I am very proud of my country, yet my car (Bentley) is British, my clothing fabrics are Italian, my watch Swiss and so on. And no one begrudges me those things because they weren't given to me; I earned them. Our capitalistic system allowed me to pursue 'high' goals. And, of course, I can spend MY money in the manner of my choosing. Socialists and communists could NEVER understand.
I think that I'm off topic--my exuberance overtook me.
>>By lv2read (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 19:45)
L2R
"So....do NOTHING until something is done to you?? Not very responsible to me!"
you havent read my post again have you where did I say do nothing? didnt I imply that the Isrealies should do what they did back in 81... a pre-emptive strike...that doesnt really sound like doing nothing does it!! what I was implying is that the US should do nothing (oh give technology to the Isrealies but for gods sake dont give them any Pilots they'll only have blue-on-blues all over the place) because by invading countires left right and centre the US makes the world a far less safer place.
"You would be wise to take President Bush'es council on that."
I dont know what his council on that is, and although it offends your sensibilities, I actually think he is an idiot so I would rather not take his council on anything, until I hear something that makes sense.
"I'm light hearted about the Communist Daily Worker and the Al Quaida Chronicle"
I'm sorry but I dont take jibes about me being a communist or Al quaeda sympathiser, purely because I disagree with your views, lightly, especially from someone who dodged the draft but seems to revell in the current wastage of his nations youth, you may not understand why but it leaves a kind of bitter taste in my mouth.
"America is the shining light on the hill. A vibrant economy, strong middle class, high tech, where even the poorest have automobiles, washers/dryers, stereos, access to FREE education"
The highest murder rates, kids walking into schools and shooting their peers, and citizens who cant afford hospital treatment because they cant afford health insurance, yep a real utopia...
"Personally, I'd like to see us cancel (in its entirety) our multi, multi, multi billion dollar foreign aid package for just ONE YEAR. I wonder just how long the vitriolic statements railing against our government (such as yours) would continue."
Like the paltry sum the US sent after the Tsunami, jeez we sent more and we have a fraction of your population....honestly I couldnt give a toss how much or how little the US gives in aid, even if you stopped giving aid for the next ten years let alone one, it wouldnt change my opinion of the US of A
"Our capitalistic system allowed me to pursue 'high' goals. And, of course, I can spend MY money in the manner of my choosing."
same here, both my cars are German, my motorbike is Italian, my clothes are european and all of my watches (I collect watches) are swiss with the exception of a couple of crappy seiko's that is, I am currently negotiating to purchase a french aeroplane, so I guess my 'communist /socialist' background shows in all this decadent boasting of what we have got me and you eh L2R!!
Every country has its faults but it seems to me that the US's insistence of being the worlds policeman, without understanding what effect that has on other nations is one of the reasons why you are ridiculed and reviled around the world, your insistence that you are the best and all should follow doesnt sit well with many nations, and you just cant see why!!
was it Teddy Roosevelt who said "speak sofly but carry a big stick"? wise words, so why does dubya insist on posturing threatening and lying whilst waving the big stick around belligerently?
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 28 Sep 2006 21:03)
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